1 .Pastor David Joy of Grace Fellowship ministers to a congregation of about 175 people. He has a strong youth group with several young men and women preparing for ministry. Some of these are at college already while others are in high school. Pastor Joy feels a special responsibility to be a source of wisdom for those who intend to become full-time ministers.
One Tuesday morning he gets a call from Jeff, an 18- year old, enrolled in his first year at a denominational college. Jeff is a serious student who was a leader in the youth group before he left for college. When Pastor Joy hears David’s voice he immediately realizes a problem exists. know I need a job.” David continued by saying, “Yesterday, I got a call from a restaurant and they want to hire me as a waiter.” Pastor Joy then asked David about the problem. David told Pastor Joy the restaurant serves alcohol and it has a bar, where he would be required to serve occasionally.
David wants to know if serving alcohol would pose a problem for the Credentials Board of the district. David needs a job, and he never intends to drink intoxicating beverages. After all he needs a job to be able to afford his ministerial education.
Reflecting on this description, what do you think Pastor Joy should say to David?
What values are at stake in his situation? Does David’s need for a job justify this job?
Should it make a difference that David will only serve and not drink the intoxicating beverages?
Does it matter that some Christians do not see a problem with drinking?
2. Joe lives in a small town and the only 2 major employers are the local casino and grocery. He is a self-employeed refrigeration repair tech. the economy has slowed and he hasn’t any work for quite a while. He’s running out of money. He hears that the local casino has a job opening for an experienced refrigeration tech. Should he apply for the job?
3. your having dinner at a board member’s house and you notice the wine rack in his kitchen. do you say anything about it?
Wk 1 Ethics Question #1 – David Freeman
1Reflecting on this description, what do you think Pastor Joy should say to David?
The Nazarene Manual states in section 34.5 “our position and practice is abstinence rather than moderation. Holy Scripture teaches that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.With loving regard for ourselves and others, we call our people to total abstinence from all intoxicants. Furthermore, our Christian social responsibility calls us to use any legitimate and legal means to minimize the availability of both beverage alcohol and tobacco to others.”
I believe that man needs firm boundaries in which to act because our ethics have become so twisted from what God originally intended. Therefore I agree with the statement from the manual and especially for the young in Christ as David is in this example. David obviously needs a job but there are other jobs which he could find. Maybe this is faith issue with David. Does he trust God for a job that does not need alcohol?
Judgement by others is critical to our ministry. If David has an opportunity to witness to someone who saw him working at the restaurant and serving alcohol. The Credentials board are just men who will also bring their own ethics and may judge that he was not the best choice. Paul states: “Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way” (Rom. 14.13 NASB). Could this become a stumbling block for others, for yourself?
In 1Pet. 2.16 (NASB), it says “Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.” We are not under the law and are free. So David is free to work at this job but he must always be aware of his mission.
BUT
Jesus says: “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” (Luke 20.25 NASB). Sometimes our ethics in the church have been established by tradition and not by a true heart for God. Will David stay away from alcohol? Today the world does not see alcohol being served in a restaurant as representing moral sin. We should not go into a mall because there is certainly alcohol there is a natural outcome of tradition carried too far. David needs work and I believe that without work he may have to drop out of school and where would that leave him.
I would advise David to search his heart and make sure there is no issue for him about alcohol. If he has a clear understanding of the purpose for which the manual was written and is in agreement then he could take this job and reach out to those whom he comes into contact with. We see Jesus going into the homes of sinners, changing the water into wine, etc.. So again I think Pastor Joy needs to evaluate this situation on the basis of what he knows about David.
What values are at stake in his situation? Values include David’s, the world’s, and the Credential’s board. Does David’s need for a job justify this job? It does not justify the job, it is just one of the determining factors.
Should it make a difference that David will only serve and not drink the intoxicating beverages? Yes. To take a drink suggest a deeper understanding of what may be happening.
Does it matter that some Christians do not see a problem with drinking? Our ethics should be built on the “truth” and less on what others may believe. We are constrained by the ethics of our world and we must evaluate and establish ethics built on a relationship with Christ.
Ethics Question #2 – David Freeman
Should Joe apply for a job at the local casino? Yes. I think the same kind of issues must be understood as I related in my response to question #1 above in ultimately making this decision. We live in a wicked world but we are the light to this world. We must not live by the world’s ethics but by our own built upon Christ. We must be watchful and accountable to other christians as we go but we can not make ourselves separate from the world in our witness and friendship.
I AGREE WHAT A PLACE TO BE A WITNESS.
Ethics Wk 1 Question #3 – David Freeman
Your having dinner at a board member’s house and you notice the wine rack in his kitchen. Do you say anything about it?
We are in danger here ourselves. Are we being judgmental? Before we approach the issue implied above, we need to examine our own ethics. If we are ready, then I think a good conversation might come out of this. We could ask what they think about alcohol use. Once we understand their ethics and beliefs, then we may be ready to purpose our understanding.
As a board member, he has agreed to a life that is beyond reproach. This might be another entry for a discussion about alcohol and our witness to others. Certainly, he has a greater responsibility. So, I believe that this could well be a situation in which we might want to deal with a possible issue.
As a board member, he has agreed to a life that is beyond reproach. This might be another entry for a discussion about alcohol and our witness to others. Certainly, he has a greater responsibility. So, I believe that this could well be a situation in which we might want to deal with a possible issue.
HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE THE SITUATION, WHAT WOILD YOU SAY PLEASE ELABORATE
1Reflecting on this description, what do you think Pastor Joy should say to David?
THANK YOU FOR LOOKING BOTH WAYS.
QUEST/ION 2
Well first I must assume that I am a fairly good friend so I would start by asking why the wine bottles. Maybe they could be decorations or maybe he feels that drinking wine is OK. If it is the later, I would ask him/her to expand on why they believe that drinking wine is OK for them. Based on his answer, I would ask more questions and pose possible problems. I would try to be open to the Holy Spirits leading. Judgement can cause many to leave the church and even reject Christ, so I think I would need to tread carefully. I would probably share some scripture and ask him to thing about being beyond reproach. I believe in loving confrontation, both loving and with the pursuit of the truth.
I AGREE THAT WE MUST BE CAREFUL IN JUDGING. IF HE FEELS THAT THERE IS SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE FOR DRINKING WINE JESUS MADE WINE AT CANA, PAUL TOLD TIMOTHY TO DRINK A LITTLE WINE. HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND?
Paul said: "No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments" (1 Tim 5:23).
Here are a few qualities of red wine:
Puts your immune system at work. Increases the immunity, thereby increases the natural resistance of the body against diseases.
Accelerates the metabolism, increases the combustion and makes you eliminate the toxins from the body faster. So the good news is that you may drink red wine during diets. It's a good digestive and, because of it, you will remain full of energy for the duration of the diet. Plus, it prevents bad evolutions of a calories rich diet.
It's good for your skin and maintains the skin elasticity. Stops premature aging of the cellular tissues.
Your heart stays young, because the resveratrol contained by the wine helps normalizing the blood cholesterol level. More than that, it prevents it from building up on the vascular inner walls, and sclerosis.
Keeps you clear from depression, by increasing the immunity of your body to stress factors and has a relaxing action over the brain.
Is a very efficient remedy for fighting cancer; it stops its effects and in some cases even stops its evolution.
Protects the cells and prevents their degradation; is one of the strongest natural antioxidants. The lemon is actually weaker than the resveratrol found in the red wine, which is 25 to 50 times more efficient than the same quantity of vitamin C.
It maintains your mind active, is very efficient against neuronal cellular dysfunctions. Recent studies have shown that red wine prevents Alzheimer's disease in 75% of the cases of the people that drink daily 300 ml of red wine.
At the wedding of Cana, I understand that good water was scarce and wine because it was fermented, stayed good to drink.
I think moderation is the key. If we are getting drunk under the guise of health, then we missed the point. But will it be a stumbling block for others coming into our home, especially if we are deacons or board members?
My neighbor knows that I go to church on a regular basis and many times when he has seen me in the yard working, he has offered a beer. In the past, I would refuse but I have come to realize that I might be able to witness to him more effectively if I took his offer of a friendship drink. I have the discipline to not drink more and maybe this would provide an open door.
A pastor of mine once told me that a member of his church, drove by and saw him drinking a coke from a bottle. The man thought that the pastor was drinking a beer. This pastor never drank from a bottle again.
We are free from the judgement of others but must answer to God for all that we do. We should watch carefully how we let our ethics be degraded (like the examples of watering down that you expressed) but we must not become legalistic like the pharisees.
PS. I am considering wine at dinner as another way to keep cancer free. I drink green tea and eat asparagus. I decided not to take chemo but believe in prayer and good health practices.
WELL THOUGHT OUT. THE BEER MIGHT HELP BREAK THE ICE.
WRITE 2 ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS. POST UNDER ETHICS QUESTIONS.
One of the Sunday School teachers is smoking outside the classroom. She is a member of the church and teaches the 1st grade class. I have tried to talk to her about her testimony but she does not seem to be trying to change and is becoming angry at our conversation. What should I do next?
Question #1:Reflecting on this description, what do you think Pastor Joy should say to David?
What values are at stake in his situation? Does David’s need for a job justify this job?
Should it make a difference that David will only serve and not drink the intoxicating beverages?
Does it matter that some Christians do not see a problem with drinking?
I think his pastor should say due to the place that you are at in life right now it would be best if you find a different job so that the credentials board doesn't have to even be challenged with the issue. I feel like our manual does tell us to refrain from drinking which is man's way of helping Nazarene's not to stumble or even be tempted to stumble. But the Bible is just too clear that drinking is okay and drunkenness is not.
His values aren't at stake but people might disagree. The calling on his life should be considered. Will his serving drinks cause others to stumble or stop them from wanting to hear about Christ from his mouth or his church? He has to consider the plus's and minus's. The consequences. I chose to not drink at all when I asked Jesus into my life and certainly when I answered God's call to ministry so that nothing gets in the way of my ability to Share the Gospel with all of God's fulness. But I don't tell others to do the same, especially those that don't have a call to ministry.
We live in a culture that is divided over drinking. The church is becoming more accepting and a study of drinking in Jesus day give the idea that views on drinking has changed over the years and it just might do it again within the Christian communities!
WELL THOUGHT OUT.
Question #2. The Bible doesn't say anything about gambling or betting. It sure says a lot about money and what we do with it and think about it? How it can control us and be an idol. This one for me differs a bit from the first question. Even though Joe will be in the background at work, I just wonder if he is settling for 2nd best in a job rather than God's best? I have watched gambling destroy my step mother's life and countless others in my churches. As a young Christian I had the chance to team with a casino to start a race car track and the only reason I would have considered it was because they had money and land that couldn't be controlled by our local agencies. But in the negotiations I felt like I was dealing with the devil. I ran from it. As a pastor, I would challenge Joey to wait for God's best but wouldn't condemn him if he chose the casino job.
JEFF
THIS IS A HARD ONE. THIS REALLY HAPPENED, IT TURNS OUT THAT THERE WAS SO MUCH WORK THAT THE PERSON HAD NO OPPORTNITY TO EVEN SEE THE GAMBELLING FLOOR.
Question #3. No. Hopefully I would have covered that in membership class and in the interview process before going on the election ballot. Quite honestly I show members what our Nazarene Manual says, that they want their people to be abstinent concerning alcohol. Then I go to the scriptures and show them that drunkenness is the sin. Next I tell them to consider others when and if they choose to use alcohol. Don't cause others to stumble. For leaders I highly recommend that they do it in the privacy of their own homes. So again, I would not make mention of the wine rack.
I AGREE
My additional question: A new couple comes to church with their two teenage daughters. The teens are both wearing tight clothing and one has some cleavage showing. One of the older, long time attendees notices and demands the pastor to talk to them during the week and tell the family how christians are to dress. What should the pastor say to all of the people involved?
My 2nd additional question: One of the new members of the church invites the pastor over for dessert. They are long time christians and they ask the pastor to quit playing that contemporary music during the worship service. They say that it is heathen jungle music and is not from God. What should the pastor say and do?
Question # 1 cont:
If David did not have a problem with alcohol then I don't believe that just serving the alcohol would make a difference, I believe it would be part of his employment and that would be that.
I understand that some Christians don't see alcohol as a problem and maybe to them it's not. Maybe for them they can just have a drink at dinner or while watching a sporting event. Maybe it's just not that big of a deal, but we should recognize that there is always the other side of the coin. There are those who can not just have one, they can not control themselves and it always gets out of hand. {And I'm talking Christians}
And where do we put God in all of this? Do we trust Him enough to allow Him to speak to people's heart and convince them what is sin and what is not. I believe in our manual, and I believe it is designed to help people, to give guidelines and boundries and we all should know that we as people need those. But lets let God do His thing as well and trust that His Spirit will be true and show the truth.
SHOULD HE TAKE THE JOB?
But lets let God do His thing as well and trust that His Spirit will be true and show the truth.
YES,YES
Question # 2
Yes I believe that Joe needs to provide for himself as well as his family and as a Christian we can not be affraid of living in this world, we must be a light into all the world and even into our work places. Just because it;s a casino does not mean the light won't shine.
Question # 3
Obviously you know this person well enough to have dinner, and again I believe that they must not have a problem with alcohol, so to them it is no big deal, but from a scriptural bases if this is causing you to stumble then I believe you have the right to speak to this party and talk to them about the alcohol issues.
GOOD THOUGHTS
# 1 Does what I do making money reflect on my future leadership role? Would I be able to serve intoxicating beverages to the individual knowing that someday I might be a leader in his or her life?
WHAT IF THIS THE ONLY JOB AVAILABLE, THE PERSON HAS TO EAT?
# 2 Regarding Joe, while working in a casino does place him in an area of sin infestation. As he works on refrigerators, couldn’t he be the best testimony in his area for Jesus? Jesus said, not to take us out of the world, but that He would be with us while we are in it. It is one thing to serve the alcohol but it is another to work on the cooler that holds the alcohol or even using the money that you were paid for by working on the cooler. In other words most of the money in your pocket is most likely a carrier of meth, cocaine , ect. A lot of money you posse has been involved in a drug ring and your in possession of it. We according to scripture must stay in step with the spirit and we will not gratify the acts of the sinful nature and they are obvious One of them I believe is pure legalism, anyhow, praise the Lord for His indescribable gift. If we stay in step He will lead us into all truth.
Question #1:
The Nazarene Manual clearly states: 34.5. The use of intoxicating liquors as a beverage, or trafficking therein; giving influence to, or voting for, the licensing of places for the sale of the same; using illicit drugs or trafficking therein; using of tobacco in any of its forms, or trafficking therein
While I am a Nazarene and studying to be a Nazarene Pastor, this is something I believe was directed by the Nazarene church. Denominational Rules are not always biblical, so this would be where my problem with this is. Of course, he is a student at a Denominational College, however he should always have a wise sage guide him in times of question.
In the time of Jesus, we know He turned water into wine. I think it is amazing how many people say that wine then was similar to grape juice today. I honestly wish I knew if this was true or not, but crushing grapes has always been grape juice…once it is fermented it becomes wine. This may be more so a way to back up our own personal belief.
Another issue is the traditionalism in the church at a whole. We statistically know that by being super conservative will cause us to miss reaching nearly 60% of our population. I personally don't consume alcohol, that is a personal belief. I believe that it may hinder my witness if I were to speak with someone. However, I think we often use that part of the manual to judge other individuals which is to me wrong. Often in our own church, people will be judged if they are seen downtown Flagstaff in the evening. Gossip is talked against in the Bible, but we are often good at doing that!
DAN,
DRNKING WINE IS NOT A SIN…THEREFORE THE M ANUAL WHILE IT IS OUR GUIDEIS NOT TO BE USED AS A HAMMER. I AGRE WITH YOU, IT IS UP TO GOD AND THE PERSON TO DECIDE.
Addition to Question #1:
How can we honestly hurt the growth and development of our communities? Culture says that alcoholic consumption is normal. Even in the scriptures they drank wine (I believe it wasn't enough to be drunk, but for substance). Are we to post signs in our front yards voting against establishments that want to serve and alcoholic beverage? Then are we supposed to avoid Pizza Hut, Strombollis, Flagstaff Mall and so on because they serve alcoholic beverages? This is a very fine line.
I believe that it is a personal conviction between you and God.
AMEN
Question #2:
It would be the same as standing in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic and chastising the women that go in. How are we being a witness? How are we being good people for bashing others for their choice of work? We as a church need to better understand how to reach those "farthest from God" and by telling someone they can't work is wrong! In todays economy, we are still supposed to tithe and be leaders of our family. We are supposed to support our family financially.
I can see where it would be an issue of public appearance, but no where in the scriptures does it say "Thou Shalt Not Visitith Cliff Castle Casino."
Question #3:
I am sitting in the house and see a bottle of wine right now on the counter. I have not consumed of it (I am a board member) but sure, people will freak out! This is us trying to hide…simple as that. We like to play judge one too many times and potentially the same reason statistics say the church is too judgemental. Isn't that God's job?
The wine that sits on my counter is not mine. I am not married, but it could be my spouses. I believe that we often try too hard to hunt down the witch that really isn't a witch at all. Hence what caused the messy Salem Witch Trials, the church was trying to meddle too much into lives.
Our job is to bring individuals closer to a walk with Christ. Holy Spirit will convict and God will judge. If the board member is drinking, that is an issue between him and God. Sure, we can say something…but if they say that it is not theres, then we need to believe them (because trust is also important).
.Pastor David Joy of Grace Fellowship ministers to a congregation of about 175 people. He has a strong youth group with several young men and women preparing for ministry. Some of these are at college already while others are in high school. Pastor Joy feels a special responsibility to be a source of wisdom for those who intend to become full-time ministers.
One Tuesday morning he gets a call from Jeff, an 18- year old, enrolled in his first year at a denominational college. Jeff is a serious student who was a leader in the youth group before he left for college. When Pastor Joy hears David’s voice he immediately realizes a problem exists. know I need a job.” David continued by saying, “Yesterday, I got a call from a restaurant and they want to hire me as a waiter.” Pastor Joy then asked David about the problem. David told Pastor Joy the restaurant serves alcohol and it has a bar, where he would be required to serve occasionally.
David wants to know if serving alcohol would pose a problem for the Credentials Board of the district. David needs a job, and he never intends to drink intoxicating beverages. After all he needs a job to be able to afford his ministerial education.
Reflecting on this description, what do you think Pastor Joy should say to David?
What values are at stake in his situation? Does David’s need for a job justify this job?
Should it make a difference that David will only serve and not drink the intoxicating beverages?
Does it matter that some Christians do not see a problem with drinking?
I have read all of the posts of my classmates and absolutely agree with the responsibility that is placed upon the leadership of the church to point this young man to living his life according to the principals set before him by our denomination (the manual), by God's word (the disciplines of the Holy Spirits' prompting) and teaching him to listen to those convictions of his heart and recognize that those are the places of evaluation that help us as believers to know what is real about the God we serve. He places the disciplines in our lives for OUR benefit – to define our character so that we will be MORE like him – if our strongest desire is to be more like JESUS than we are less apt to be a stumbling block to other believers. NO MATTER WHERE WE GO! I believe our greatest testimony is when we are in the world BUT not of the world. I guess the question for this young man would be do you see yourself as a stumbling block or a stepping stone to pointing a non-believer to Jesus?
Joe lives in a small town and the only 2 major employers are the local casino and grocery. He is a self-employeed refrigeration repair tech. the economy has slowed and he hasn’t any work for quite a while. He’s running out of money. He hears that the local casino has a job opening for an experienced refrigeration tech. Should he apply for the job?
Again I guess this goes back to the fact that we live IN The world but not OF THE WORLD. His options seem completely limited – and I believe the challenge here is to discuss that very clearly. I think there are great ethical lessons here to be learned again about building Godly character in a very ungodly environment. There are people in casinos, in bars, in very desperate situations that need Jesus. It is always our response that is crucial. Taking a job such as this may open doors of opportunity for this individual to share Jesus Christ in ways that he has never known – again – it's a Christian Character defining moment.
Numerous times in scripture we see Jesus (our example) who went into many places that others didn't understand – so that he could meet with sinners.
your having dinner at a board member’s house and you notice the wine rack in his kitchen. do you say anything about it?
For me personally it would depend on how well I know this person. I would definitely make it a matter of prayer if I felt it was a hinderance to me or to my fellow staff / board members. I have had this issue take place – I found it more effective to really develop a relationship with the person – find out more about their life (in this case – the person came from a very strong catholic background – their family history was Italian and drinking wine was a family heritage). The bottles of wine were given to them by family members. Sometimes there is more to the story – sometimes its a part of the person's faith testimony – sometimes its an opportunity for us as leaders to walk that person into a deeper faith walk with their Savior. I believe we have to be careful not to condemn but to ask the Holy Spirit to use us to be sensitive.
NOW if this person were someone within my own family whom I do know the story – and they were compromising what I feel to be their values and beliefs – I would address it…..because I have relationship with them!
GOOD JOB
I AGREE. WHAT A GREAT PLACE TO WITNESS
1. Drinking is not a sin. Being a drunkard and not being able to control one's actions is a sin. I believe that David would need to ask God for advice on what to do here. The only problem that I really see is if this job would affect his walk with God. . . being in the atmosphere with people who are heavily intoxicated can be a problem as they may be a negative influence on David. David, because of his ethics, may cut people off from drinking early.
2. I would not have a problem working for a casino. Gambling in excess is a sin and a problem. I don't see the problem in working for a casino as a refrigerator repair man. He is not promoting gambling.
3. I would privately talk to the person who lives in the house but I would not condemn them. Just a light conversation about not drinking too much for being a drunkard is a sin.
My questions:
1. I have a friend who drinks himself to sleep at night. He is a Christian man who says that it just calms him down. . . what do I say?
2. Christian men at a safe house smoke. . . it looks like they have traded on addiction for another. . . what should I say?
APPLYPastor Harvey Shapiro1481 Panorama WayClarkdale, AZ 86324928-649-5797
Our Church had a fund raising dinner and a wine and beer bar was there because it was held at a winery. I am having a harsd time with that.
ME ALSO. WE ARE TO BE DIFFERENT FROM THE WORLD… THE MESSAGE THAT THE CHURCH IS CONVEYING IS THAT IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT YOU DO…I KNOW OF SOME CHURCHES WHO HAVE RENTED THEATERS FOR THEIR SERVICES—PERHAPS ATTENDANCE WOULD INCREASE IF THEY ALSO SHOWED R RATED MOVIES…THAT’S NOT AN ACTIVITY THAT WOULD HONOR JESUS. WHAT IF JESUS CAME TO YOUR FUND RAISER—WOULD THE ADMINISTRATORS –THOSE WHO ARE OVERSEERS OF THE CHURCH—FEEL EMBARRASSED? OH YEA HE WAS THERE. WHERE TWO ORR MORE ARE GATHERED…Pastor Harvey Shapiro1481 Panorama WayClarkdale, AZ 86324928-649-5797